Space Time Gravity.

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Space Time Gravity.

Post  Angelic on Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:08 am

I need to comprehend Space Time Gravity because I don't want to be in ignorance.

They say it curves space time. That objects take the path of least resistance.

But if both objects have a speed of zero, what resistance is there?
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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  MichaelaSJ on Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:44 am

There are basically two types of gravity - Newtonian gravity where each object falls towards the other and is stated as:
Newtonian gravity is used for terrestrial reasons as in rocket trajectories and civil engineering and also for astronomical calculations as in planetary/planetesimal orbits.

The other type of gravity is Einstein's relativistic gravity that does involve a space time relativity and can be expressed as:

Relativistic gravity is very practical and is the reason why your car's navigator tells you to "Turn Left Here, Now Turn Left" and be accurate to within inches (military standard). It also explains things called 'Gravitational Lensing' which are fantastic to look at and difficult to imagine. The blue ring around the galaxy in the image below is that of a galaxy or quasar billions of light years behind the galaxy the ring encircles and the light is being bent by the massiveness of the foreground galaxy:


I can do the math for Newtonian gravity, but Einstein's gravity beats the shit out of my mind with its need to understand manifold and tensors and guage fixing and...….

Space Time is a proven theory and relies upon the constant speed of light - 300,000km/second. While relativistic gravity uses space time, it does not resist anything. Rather is causes time to slow relative to an object.

The way that Einstein's Theory of General Relativity was PROVEN, was when calculated, a star's position would seem to be displaced if the light from the star interacted with the mass of another star - in this case, our Sun.

During an eclipse in 1919 a group of astronomers observed a total eclipse of the Sun and took a photograph of the stars in the region of the Sun. They could take the photograph as the Sun was completely block. Below is the actual image:


By knowing where the stars were prior to the eclipse and comparing to what the position of the stars were in the photograph, the astromers were able to see that the Sun bent the light. Since the speed of light is a constant they knew it took longer for the light to reach the Earth. Applying simple acceleration math proved Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and hence Relativistic Gravity.

Also, General Relativity states that if an object is moving away, or is farther, from something - time slows. It has been proven that an atomic clock on Earth runs faster than an atomic clock thousand of miles above the earth. Not by much, but enough that if we didn't understand the difference, your car's navigator would be off by miles every day if a relativistic correction was not made several times a day. So, rather than turning south "Now", you might be turning into a department store's front door.

So, simply: objects do not take the path of least resistance, they take the path created by a curvature of space affected by another object.

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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  Angelic on Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:30 pm

MichaelaSJ wrote:
I can do the math for Newtonian gravity, but Einstein's gravity beats the shit out of my mind with its need to understand manifold and tensors and guage fixing and...….
Probably isn't that hard, if you just sat down had a cup of tea and had a decent instructor to tutor you about it. The key here, is to relax. The equation really wasn't that long. Be mindful also of the colors of the room. Dark greens and browns are good for learning, that is why public schools never use them.

The way that Einstein's Theory of General Relativity was PROVEN, was when calculated, a star's position would seem to be displaced if the light from the star interacted with the mass of another star - in this case, our Sun.


During an eclipse in 1919 a group of astronomers observed a total eclipse of the Sun and took a photograph of the stars in the region of the Sun. They could take the photograph as the Sun was completely block. Below is the actual image:


By knowing where the stars were prior to the eclipse and comparing to what the position of the stars were in the photograph, the astromers were able to see that the Sun bent the light. Since the speed of light is a constant they knew it took longer for the light to reach the Earth. Applying simple acceleration math proved Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and hence Relativistic Gravity.
I don't see how that proves relativity. All it proves is that gravity effects photons.


Also, General Relativity states that if an object is moving away, or is farther, from something - time slows. It has been proven that an atomic clock on Earth runs faster than an atomic clock thousand of miles above the earth. Not by much, but enough that if we didn't understand the difference, your car's navigator would be off by miles every day if a relativistic correction was not made several times a day. So, rather than turning south "Now", you might be turning into a department store's front door.
Not saying relativity isn't real, but are we sure it is the causation. Atomic clocks use radioactive decay to tell time, maybe radioactive decay just occurs faster in certain regions of space, and relativity is not real.


So, simply: objects do not take the path of least resistance, they take the path created by a curvature of space affected by another object.
Doesn't make sense to me. And it doesn't matter if I believe in relativity. I want to understand relativity so I am giving it the benefit of the doubt, let's say it is real just for the sake of discussion. How would curving space cause gravity? Because lets say space is a real thing, and you can somehow curve it. How would this actually induce a motion in a stationary object? Its the equivalent of saying that curving train tracks, would cause the train to move. Actually it would do nothing but curve the train a little, the train would not actually move forward at all. If anything, curving the track would make the train slow down and induce more lateral resistance.
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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  MichaelaSJ on Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:27 am

Angelic wrote:Probably isn't that hard, if you just sat down had a cup of tea and had a decent instructor to tutor you about it. The key here, is to relax. The equation really wasn't that long. Be mindful also of the colors of the room. Dark greens and browns are good for learning, that is why public schools never use them.

What the fuck are you talking about?

The way that Einstein's Theory of General Relativity was PROVEN, was when calculated, a star's position would seem to be displaced if the light from the star interacted with the mass of another star - in this case, our Sun.

During an eclipse in 1919 a group of astronomers observed a total eclipse of the Sun and took a photograph of the stars in the region of the Sun. They could take the photograph as the Sun was completely block. Below is the actual image:

By knowing where the stars were prior to the eclipse and comparing to what the position of the stars were in the photograph, the astromers were able to see that the Sun bent the light. Since the speed of light is a constant they knew it took longer for the light to reach the Earth. Applying simple acceleration math proved Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and hence Relativistic Gravity.
Angelic wrote:I don't see how that proves relativity. All it proves is that gravity effects photons.

SIGH Exclamation

You may want to start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity and if you can find the simple explanation within your grasp, them maybe you can later go on to unify relativistic gravity with quantum gravity and win a Nobel Prize for yourself.

Also, General Relativity states that if an object is moving away, or is farther, from something - time slows. It has been proven that an atomic clock on Earth runs faster than an atomic clock thousand of miles above the earth. Not by much, but enough that if we didn't understand the difference, your car's navigator would be off by miles every day if a relativistic correction was not made several times a day. So, rather than turning south "Now", you might be turning into a department store's front door.
Angelic wrote:Not saying relativity isn't real, but are we sure it is the causation. Atomic clocks use radioactive decay to tell time, maybe radioactive decay just occurs faster in certain regions of space, and relativity is not real.

Relativity is not causative. It is an expression of how objects behave in space-time. YES, radioactive materials decay at different rates in the universe because of the effect of space-time and the CONSTANT "C" or the speed of light in a vacuum which is commonly stated to be 300,000km/sec (or, its precise value is 299792.458 kilometers per second). Please, tell me you understand how to compute how a far something travels given a specific period of time. Unless, you have a basic understanding of how to compute velocity or acceleration, there is no point in trying to understand relativity, or space-time, or anything dealing with the physical world.

So, simply: objects do not take the path of least resistance, they take the path created by a curvature of space affected by another object.
Angelic wrote:Doesn't make sense to me. And it doesn't matter if I believe in relativity. I want to understand relativity so I am giving it the benefit of the doubt, let's say it is real just for the sake of discussion. How would curving space cause gravity? Because lets say space is a real thing, and you can somehow curve it. How would this actually induce a motion in a stationary object? Its the equivalent of saying that curving train tracks, would cause the train to move. Actually it would do nothing but curve the train a little, the train would not actually move forward at all. If anything, curving the track would make the train slow down and induce more lateral resistance.
You need to get your head out of your gaming console and start to learn something more about your environs than what who is doing what to who on you 18" gaming screen.

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If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  Jehanne on Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:22 pm

Wonderful explanation, Michaela!  Here's a good book on Amazon written by a layperson who has kept his book up-to-date:

https://www.amazon.com/Most-Incomprehensible-Thing-Introduction-Mathematics-ebook/dp/B008JRJ1VK/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  Angelic on Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:46 pm

Rude, not even responding to Michaela. If people want to be willfully ignorant thats no fault by me.

She doesn't even address my arguments, willfully misinterprets my comments and just hands me a link that supposedly explains everything so she doesn't have to, and then posts a bunch of rude comments, after I have been nothing but nice to her.

Lesley, you wonder why I'm a mean person sometimes? It's these kind of people, these kind of people that turn me into a mean person.
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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  Jehanne on Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:25 pm

It's okay, Angel! It's just science that we're talking about here!! Relax, you're among friends!!!

As for relativity, it must be true, because such is demanded from Maxwell's description and equations of Electricity & Magnetism. It just took awhile for scientists such as HA Lorentz, and ultimately, Einstein to formulate such, formally.

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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  Lesley Niyori on Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:45 pm

Angelic wrote:Rude, not even responding to Michaela. If people want to be willfully ignorant thats no fault by me.

She doesn't even address my arguments, willfully misinterprets my comments and just hands me a link that supposedly explains everything so she doesn't have to, and then posts a bunch of rude comments, after I have been nothing but nice to her.

Lesley, you wonder why I'm a mean person sometimes? It's these kind of people, these kind of people that turn me into a mean person.

I can understand why Michaela said what she said, but, you are right Angel. Michaela, you could have been less rude, more friendly.

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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  Kaibeth on Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:55 pm

If there's one thing I can't abide from the old forums, it was the bickering and cattiness so prevalent. And this time around, I am in a position to have sayso about it.

Please be nice to each other.

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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  Celia Eriksson on Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:40 pm

Well, let's lighten it up a bit. Many years ago when I had to literally drag someone out of a pub most nights, apart from doing all the cooking, cleaning, ironing, etc. etc. for the drunken skunk and also hold down a job, there was this wee Irish lad called Peter that frequented his local.

He told me all about the Beer Bubble Theory It was told to me whilst such a heated discussion was taking place as this one. That is, that the entire universe is within a bubble that is just one of many, in a huge pint of Guinness. Ah, I remember the demonsration of the theory, as he held his pint up....and that is why the universe is dark.... apparently.

I like the theory and relate it many times when such rows occur. The universe and that is quite an oft discussed topic, not least by me, that usually leads …… nowhere...….. And satisfies.... not one involved person's curiosity.

Celia xx

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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  Lesley Niyori on Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:31 pm

You are all just part of my imagination, and, that explains everything Smile

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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  Jehanne on Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:20 am

You might be correct, Leslie.

But, I agree with the multiverse hypothesis, also.  Dr. Carl Sagan floated this idea back with his Cosmos book and show.

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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  MichaelaSJ on Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:24 am

The Theory of Relativity is proven science and its most useful application is our extremely accurate GPS system.

Quantum Mechanics still has its doubters (including Einstein, if he were still alive) but transistors work based upon the application of QM. Quantum entanglement, the spookiest of the spooky QM theories has been proven over a short distance in a laboratory.

We think we have an undestanding of what happened in our early universe right up until Planck Time, which is the time it take for light to travel one Planck Length, which one Planch Unit....it is a negative number with about 37 zeroes.

We also, have plug values, like something called cosmological inflation, which gives cosmologists an out when explaining why the early universe expanded at an unbelievable rate - much faster than the speed of light. Einstein had a plug number, and then he didn't have a plug number and then later physicists think he should have kept the plug (sounds of hair being pulled).

So, are the multi-universes. Who knows - who cares, except for science fiction writers and popular TV scientists.

We have a hard enough time understanding our own backyard in the cosmos - why worry about what our neighbors are doing.

Besides, I simply marvel at what I see when I look up at night and tonight there is a bright red object (Mars) in my Southeast sky and moving to the east is the Moon and another bright white object (Jupiter) just below the Moon. Remember, these bright object, called Planet (from the Greek Wanderer) were thought to revolve around the Earth as late as the 1300s.

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If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  Angelic on Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:39 pm

Jehanne wrote:It's okay, Angel!  It's just science that we're talking about here!!  Relax, you're among friends!!!

As for relativity, it must be true, because such is demanded from Maxwell's description and equations of Electricity & Magnetism.  It just took awhile for scientists such as HA Lorentz, and ultimately, Einstein to formulate such, formally.

Just science? Science is the only thing that matters.
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Re: Space Time Gravity.

Post  Jehanne on Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:53 pm

That's a great pun!

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