BREXIT Delay

**MichaelaSJ** Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:55 pm

Crunch Brexit Vote Could Be Delayed Until January 21
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/brexit-deal-vote-could-be-delayed-until-january-21-suggests-theresa-may_us_5c0e95c7e4b0edf5a3a73815

To my girlfriends in the UK, how does this affect you - if at all?

**Celia Eriksson** Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:18 pm

Hi Miki!!!!

Nobody knows! I doubt May does. I think Brexit is going to happen unless a vote of no confidence is successful. But tbh her deal is probably better than no deal at all. I hope it sorts out soon, one way or the other, coz all the doubt is doing more damage than anything else, even Brexit. Although preferably I think it best to remain in Europe, I doubt that is going to happen. Will it have any effect personally? Well, again, who knows?????

Celia xx

Guest Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:15 am

I think Britain is self destructing. I wrote a long diatribe on another website as to why but have neither the time or patience to expand on it here.
The whole thing is a car crash in slow motion.
The UK, Britain, England is in big trouble.
Being Irish I should enjoy this but I feel sick. The bigots have the upper hand aided by the naive and the dreamers
Bad times.

**Celia Eriksson** Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:41 pm

Well, I was thinking about this today whilst finishing my Xmas shopping. All done apart from the obvious BTW!!!!

I watched that Tusk man being very stubborn on tv, it seems that the EU is not budging and that makes me wonder what kinda people they really are? Then again, I wanted to stay in Europe, but only want one thing to happen now, and that is for it to be sorted, either in or out, not shillying about! Half in - half out!

I don't think it will be as bad as the scaremongers are making out, if the UK is out. I think it is all political manouvering. And Brexit is not delayed, the vote to accept May's own deal has been delayed. Now, if she gets either thrown out by parliament on a vote of no confidence, or gets thrown out by a leadership challenge, then maybe an election or second vote could happen. But, I doubt the new PM will be up for that, it could cause the disaster Marie forsees.

I believe what will happen whether the Conservatives or Labour are in power, is that we will leave, but have a trade deal that does not affect the Irish border. It will happen and we just have to make the best of it. The sooner the better, coz all this infighting and lies about vast amounts of people on both sides changing their minds is getting ridiculous and needs to stop. Celia xx

Lesley Niyori Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:32 pm

My dad, (he's in England) seems to be a never-ending source of Facebook reports on British politicians who seem to have all of the worst elements of too many of the worst of the US and also some Canadian politicians/parties.

It's distressing.

I'd love to go live with him. But, it somehow seems like as unwise as going to live in the US.

He's been travelling a lot the last year as a means to get er done, before Brexit ruins the ability to enjoy travelling outside of England.

**Celia Eriksson** Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:34 pm

Hi Lesley!

I think people will be able to travel after Brexit, their is no embargo on non-EEU citizens not travelling to the EU, I think the French tourist industry would be somewhat messed up were that true.... and I don't see how enjoyment would be ruined, unless one was an over the top Europhile. One may have to go through a different gate, that's about it.

Not that I am doubting that your Father has heard there will be difficulty, the scare stories are going around like wildfire, from both sides. The more I hear all these scare stories the more I'm disliking the EU tbh. not that I am enamoured by the false stories given out by ardent Brexiteers either. I am not alone here by just wanting closure, one way or the other, on the whole thing! It's British politics at it's very worst! They both don't seem to want to pull together to get what is best for Britain and right now, I think that is May's deal.

Celia xx

Tara Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:36 pm

Celia Eriksson wrote:I think it is all political manouvering.

Perhaps it's a good time to point out that 'manoeuver' and 'manure' come from the same Latin root.

**Celia Eriksson** Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:42 pm

'Tis true bonny lass, 'tis true!!!!!

Guest Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:26 pm

Celia Eriksson wrote: The more I hear all these scare stories the more I'm disliking the EU tbh. not that I am enamoured by the false stories given out by ardent Brexiteers either. I am not alone here by just wanting closure, one way or the other, on the whole thing! It's British politics at it's very worst! They both don't seem to want to pull together to get what is best for Britain and right now, I think that is May's deal.

Celia xx

Beware of false news Celia. Remember the EU is protecting itself and it's members. 27 countries. It has no reason to do Britain any favours. But it has in this agreement.
But it's not the EU's fault that the Tories have made an utter shambles of this. Meanwhile the Labour party are all about bringing down the Tories. This a power play. You're quite right they care little for the country just their own careers.
There has to be a deal because no deal will be career ending for plenty of politicians when many ordinary people lose their jobs.
For what it's worth it's beginning to look a lot like another vote is inevitable.

Angelic Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:31 pm

Brexit are simply people who want to retain sovereignty and not submit to a fascist totalitarian EU government.

mariehart1 wrote:I think Britain is self destructing. I wrote a long diatribe on another website as to why but have neither the time or patience to expand on it here.
The whole thing is a car crash in slow motion.
The UK, Britain, England is in big trouble.
Being Irish I should enjoy this but I feel sick. The bigots have the upper hand aided by the naive and the dreamers
Bad times.

This is pretty much SJW logic in a nutshell. If you don't submit to a fascist totalitarian government you're somehow a bigot.

I hear Vox wants to put lithium in our water.

**MichaelaSJ** Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:55 pm

Angelic wrote:I hear Vox wants to put lithium in our water.

BREXIT Delay HighlevelSinfulAnaconda-max-1mb

Guest Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:52 pm

Angelic wrote:Brexit are simply people who want to retain sovereignty and not submit to a fascist totalitarian EU government.

mariehart1 wrote:I think Britain is self destructing. I wrote a long diatribe on another website as to why but have neither the time or patience to expand on it here.
The whole thing is a car crash in slow motion.
The UK, Britain, England is in big trouble.
Being Irish I should enjoy this but I feel sick. The bigots have the upper hand aided by the naive and the dreamers
Bad times.

This is pretty much SJW logic in a nutshell. If you don't submit to a fascist totalitarian government you're somehow a bigot.

I hear Vox wants to put lithium in our water.

As ever Angel you haven't the faintestt idea what you're talking about. The EU is if anything the exact opposite and was specifically set up to avoid fascist totalitarian governments. That's why the fascists and right wing nut jobs want to destroy it. The nationalists are on the rise again in Europe having learned nothing about WW2. What shocking is that even the famously tolerant and liberal English have been infected by it and I mean English not British.
We live in strange times indeed.

**Celia Eriksson** Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:11 pm

Hi Marie!

Sorry my dear Marie. The EU was not set up for any such thing. They like to claim credit for it though.... the nuclear bomb and Nato have a far higher claim. It was entirely, purely and for no other reason set up as a trading alliance, a rich man's club. And Britain voted to join the EEC as a trading bloc. It did not join to become a province of a quasi-Superstate with monetary union, it's own army and legislative power and hold over member states with unelected officials at it's helm. Fascism has never had a sniff in the UK ever and never will, before, during or after the EU. Facism in EU nations is spreading like wildfire. Nobody has left the EU yet. It is hardly is keeping it at bay, is it?

I am all for Britain's hands off membership of the Customs Union as it was. The UK has the pound and plenty of automony with other things, which are fine. But it was better, until post millennium, when the EU increasingly began to wield more and more power upon issues that the UK increasingly disliked.

I voted remain, for the government was clearly holding on to the core values of being a member with certain opt-outs. I did so reservedly, because of the increasing influence of recent times of power of the EU over the UK.

Now, I find the way the EU has handled the whole Brexit affair as quite shocking and whilst the British government has not exactly done much to help it has not behaved as bad as the EU. And their attitude to not negotiate, in the hope we will have another referendum is quite awful. It seems the EU and many MPs do not respect democracy. Were the vote 52-48 remain, as I would have wanted, nothing would be said much these days about it. I am not enamoured with the EU just now and I am not alone amongst remainers. Celia xx

**MichaelaSJ** Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:50 pm

The EU wields some ungodly power, especially against U.S. tech companies. Some I agree with heartily, such as the EU's privacy laws but some of their antitrust regimens unfairly impact fair trade.

But, the EU is the EU and if you want to play in the EU you don't get to bring your own ball. Play by their rules or go home. If you try to skirt the EU rules, you get a heavy penalty or kicked to the bench.

**Celia Eriksson** Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:15 pm

Getting a little Brexiteer lately, which is sad, I am green, green, green!!!! Coz the fact is the Uk should have seen that coming. The EU does not want the 5th largest economy trading on it's doorstep making it's own deals, whilst having a good deal with them. Nothing to do with anything now but hard cash trade and that and it's the only concern from both sides.

Backstops in Ireland is the spanner the EU can throw in the works coz May can't get anything done without the red hands..... surprised Marie agrees with those bigots when May's deal offers an open border. Celia xx

Guest Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:51 pm

Oh Celia, I'm genuinely aghast you've bought into the Brexiteer falsehoods. I don't know what to say.

I suggest you Google Boris Johnson and EU fake stories. He made a career as a journalist making up fake EU stories. Now this man is mooted as the next PM.

The EU is not and never was about screwing Britain. Europe needs Britain's moderating influence. Ireland needed Britain's influence. We were always allies.

Your instincts as a remainer is right. Britain was always an important player in Europe. You know your own history. Battle of Waterloo? Yes Wellington was Irish and yet British. Churchill understood it too. After Brexit Britain will be an irrelevant island north of France.

Brexit is bad for everyone. There's talk of the UK joining EFTA. Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland. With all due respect, marginal countries with zero influence in the world. Is that Britain's fate?

I felt sick the morning after the vote, not just because of the damage it will do to Ireland but the self inflicted damage it will do to a country I always admired.

**MichaelaSJ** Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:54 pm

Celia Eriksson wrote:Backstops in Ireland is the spanner the EU can throw in the works coz May can't get anything done without the red hands.....

Is that the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) in Northern Ireland or something in Ireland? And if Ireland what is the political faction I should be aware of?

**MichaelaSJ** Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:57 pm

mariehart1 wrote:We were always allies.

Well, except for WWII; but that was 75 years ago and hurt feelings don't last that long - right!

**Celia Eriksson** Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:09 am

Marie.... lots of what you have written is the same spin I have heard as answers for a long time. I don't know if I believe any of that anymore, it's wearing a bit thin tbh. Yes, I think a trading bloc is good and also free movement, but it's got so sinister recently that I am beginning to wonder about that same old EU cotton wool mantra.

I cannot believe the EU is a good thing when it rejects the purest form of democracy. Look at your own nation. Did Eire not go through quite some referendums before it got the result the EU desired? Have you had another referendum since? As I recall, it was quite some time ago and I am remembering this from my own memories...

No, you did say no. And then within no time you said no again. Then, again, within no time, you said Yes. I am 100% sure you have not had a referendum upon the subject since. Celia xx

Guest Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:28 pm

MichaelaSJ wrote:
mariehart1 wrote:We were always allies.
Well, except for WWII; but that was 75 years ago and hurt feelings don't last that long - right!

False news can last that long too it seems. Personally I consider that a mistake an understandable one though. The reality is that there was quiet cooperation all through the war. But do you still near grudges for the USA remaining neutral until 1941, or the Dutch, Danes, Swiss, Portuguese known as ' Britain's oldest ally'. No you hold us to a higher standard apparently.
Perhaps you might want to give credit for the eight Victoria crosses won by Irish soldiers in WW2. Or perhaps the second highest scoring RAF ace in WW2, killed aged 21 was from Dublin. Perhaps you might give credit to the tens of thousands of Irishmen who fought and died on the front lines, in the air and at sea under the flag of Britain? Or that the D day landings went ahead on the basis of a weather report supplied by a lighthouse keeper in the west of Ireland? No?

I could go on being a history buff and all. In any case I was referring to our membership of the EU. We are allies in that venture and joined the same day. But does that count?

Don't wartime myths take a long time to fade?

Guest Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:39 am

Celia Eriksson wrote:Marie.... lots of what you have written is the same spin I have heard as answers for a long time. I don't know if I believe any of that anymore, it's wearing a bit thin tbh. Yes, I think a trading bloc is good and also free movement, but it's got so sinister recently that I am beginning to wonder about that same old EU cotton wool mantra.

I cannot believe the EU is a good thing when it rejects the purest form of democracy. Look at your own nation. Did Eire not go through quite some referendums before it got the result the EU desired? Have you had another referendum since? As I recall, it was quite some time ago and I am remembering this from my own memories...

No, you did say no. And then within no time you said no again. Then, again, within no time, you said Yes. I am 100% sure you have not had a referendum upon the subject since. Celia xx

In fact this has now become something of a Brexiteer trope. In reality two treaties were voted down by voters in Ireland, Nice and Lisbon. Ireland has a written constitution which means any changes are voted on by the people even if they don't actually know what the hell is going on. Both no votes were a result of complacency by the political elite combined with fear mongering by eurosceptics. In fact the Nice treaty went down mostly on the basis of fears that our precious neutrality was in danger. Have you seen my post to Michaela about neutrality in WW2. Still bitter eh? Actually we were never neutral, we are non aligned and basically militarily defenceless. But after some reassurances it was passed. I voted yes on both occasions btw. I considered the no voters as idiots and frankly over zealous nationalists who think that staying out of WW2 was somehow an honourable choice when in reality it was morally and economically wrong.
But basically once the some changes were made Nice became acceptable. In effect democracy won. We made them sit up an take notice was the attitude.

But the Lisbon treaty was more interesting and quite relevant to Brexit though not in the way Boris, Rees Mogg or the Daily Express readers think. Again I voted yes but it was rejected for various reasons but mostly because no one had any idea what it meant and in any case it became a battleground for Eurosceptics. A certain Nigel Farage got involved too. Again the the political establishment were complacent having learned nothing from Nice. Again after a few changes and reassurances it was passed the second time.

There are striking parallels with Brexit, political complaceny, lack of understanding of the consequences of a negative vote and pure lies told by the opposition. People think false news and alternative truths are new. They are not.

In any case Celia, don't believe me but what about Stephen Fry? Watch this, you are dead right to doubt spin. But spin works both ways. The bigger the lie the more plausible it seems.

https://youtu.be/UYonSZ8s3_o

I should point out that I'm no starry eyed fan of the EU. It needs reform but it's not a huge scary conspiracy. 28 countries can never agree on anything as sinister as that.

Guest Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:42 am

Celia Eriksson wrote:Marie.... lots of what you have written is the same spin I have heard as answers for a long time. I don't know if I believe any of that anymore, it's wearing a bit thin tbh. Yes, I think a trading bloc is good and also free movement, but it's got so sinister recently that I am beginning to wonder about that same old EU cotton wool mantra.

I cannot believe the EU is a good thing when it rejects the purest form of democracy. Look at your own nation. Did Eire not go through quite some referendums before it got the result the EU desired? Have you had another referendum since? As I recall, it was quite some time ago and I am remembering this from my own memories...

No, you did say no. And then within no time you said no again. Then, again, within no time, you said Yes. I am 100% sure you have not had a referendum upon the subject since. Celia xx

In fact this has now become something of a Brexiteer trope. In reality two treaties were voted down by voters in Ireland, Nice and Lisbon. Ireland has a written constitution which means any changes are voted on by the people even if they don't actually know what the hell is going on. Both no votes were a result of complacency by the political elite combined with fear mongering by eurosceptics. In fact the Nice treaty went down mostly on the basis of fears that our precious neutrality was in danger. Have you seen my post to Michaela about neutrality in WW2. Still bitter eh? Actually we were never neutral, we are non aligned and basically militarily defenceless. But after some reassurances it was passed. I voted yes on both occasions btw. I considered the no voters as idiots and frankly over zealous nationalists who think that staying out of WW2 was somehow an honourable choice when in reality it was morally and economically wrong.
But basically once the some changes were made Nice became acceptable. In effect democracy won. We made them sit up an take notice was the attitude.

But the Lisbon treaty was more interesting and quite relevant to Brexit though not in the way Boris, Rees Mogg or the Daily Express readers think. Again I voted yes but it was rejected for various reasons but mostly because no one had any idea what it meant and in any case it became a battleground for Eurosceptics. A certain Nigel Farage got involved too. Again the the political establishment were complacent having learned nothing from Nice. Again after a few changes and reassurances it was passed the second time.

There are striking parallels with Brexit, political complaceny, lack of understanding of the consequences of a negative vote and pure lies told by the opposition. People think false news and alternative truths are new. They are not.

In any case Celia, don't believe me but what about Stephen Fry? Watch this, you are dead right to doubt spin. But spin works both ways. The bigger the lie the more plausible it seems.

https://youtu.be/UYonSZ8s3_o

I should point out that I'm no starry eyed fan of the EU. It needs reform but it's not a huge scary conspiracy. 28 countries can never agree on anything as sinister as that.

**MichaelaSJ** Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:00 am

Sorry for the Irish 'neutrality' thingy. Didn't mean to pick at scabs. We sent some of the best pilots to fly with the Canadians in support of the German air assault on Britian before we entered the war. We did make up for some of our early misdeeds with Lend/Lease.

Roosevelt knew the Japanese were going to bomb us at Pearl Harbor (I probably wouldn't be here if my Dad didn't injure himself in a training accident before the war started and stayed stateside).

There was no attack on the Turner Joy in the Gulf of Tonkin in 1964 (I may not be here if I had not joined the Navy in '63 and waited around for the draft).

We likely wouldn't have gone into Iraq if Bush didn't want 'avenge' his father and Cheney wasn't such a war monger.

The World Trade Center would still be standing if we didn't partner up with the Saudi Kigndom and put our bases in Saudi Arabia.

We do not control our global destiny. The best we can do is control what little patch we have, what little time we can call our own. It is not much, but it is what it is and it is ours - come what may!

**Celia Eriksson** Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:12 am

The thread has gone weird, when I answered Marie, I did not see your posts there Miki..... then some posts have been repeated too. A Brexit spanner in the works maybe? Celia xx (Fed up with it anyway tbh, as I said, one way or the other and I wish they'd do it quickly!).

**MichaelaSJ** Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:03 pm

As with many threads I start this one has gone a bit sideways and I don't think a spanner will fixit - so I think it is time to get back on counting with numbers.

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