To vax or not to vax, that is the question!

Hi everyone!!!!

So atm, the UK is open and I have been busy at two antique fairs already, since everything slightly normalised since lockdown, when it ended Wednesday. Soon, we will begin the vaccination process and I for one cannot wait to have it! We are to be given certificates that say we have been vaxed and will be able to attend events those that are not vaxed cannot attend.

I estimate this will be about the end of January, beginning of February for me, being just turned 60, I sneak into that group. It starts with care homes, then key workers, which I was before I retired this September..... doh! Then the over 80,s then the over 70's then all vulnerables under 70, then the over 60's and so on. They hope to start in a week or two.

My question to you is this, will you be up for the vax, like me, or not. And if not, why not????

Celia xx

I work in a large medical research organisation which includes a section heavily involved in vaccine development. While I don't work directly with that group, I am aware of what is going on to some extent.

The short of it is, YES, I will be open to getting the jab when it is available to me. While I am not an expert, I work alongside many, and I trust their judgement far more than that of random posts on Facebook.

Because I am under 65, able to work from home, and not medically vulnerable, I will most likely be near the end of the queue, which means my opportunity will likely not arrive before May or June at the very earliest.

I am not an ANTI-Vaxxer but with my underlying health issues I will wait until at least mid-2021. I will get the current flu vaccine and also the shingles vaccine if I need an update (shingles is a REAL bitch).

It appears the UK may be first with large scale vaccinations and unfortunately the Brits will be the large scale test that would normally be done: sans the immediate need for a viable vaccine.

I am mostly stuck to my couch and when I go out (which is infrequently) I wear a mask and keep my distance.

Well as it happend I am married to a Microbiologist whose sisters and her friends and my friends are experts in the topic.

Imagine that. You watch TV and fear what's happening. But the woman you married allays your fears.
She unlike everyone else actually knows what's she's talking about.

So yes, she'll get the vaccine before me. Being important she'll get it first. Which is good because I love her.
Then me I hope because while I care nothing about my life. I wouldn't want to leave my boys.

They don't need the vaccine because quite literally in thirteen years they have never been sick. Honestly someone should inject their antibodies to everyone.

I'll be happy to donate my allotment to someone else. I'm 50 and fit, so I'll take my chances with a virus that has a greater than 99.5% survival rate.

Hypatia1 wrote: ... a greater than 99.5% survival rate.

Actually, the number in the U.S. is a bit better than 98%. But, if I were to contract COVID-19, I am dead - it is as simple as that.

Because of my underlying health issues (COPD/CAD) I will not survive the virus and I really take issue with the non-believers who think they can go out in the public and carry-on as if it were December 2019 and not December 2020.

There were 2,879 deaths last Friday and there will likely be over 3,000 and more later this week. Please don't make me a part of that number.

And I absolutely think you should take precautions. Don't go out unless you absolutely have to. Utilize things like home delivery or contactless pick up. Wear your mask, wash your hands. Do those things that are basic hygiene. I don't want ANYONE dying from the China virus.

Having said that, the only way society builds immunity to this thing is if people like me get it, get over it and build immunity to it. We can't live in our basements forever. Just look at it this way, I'm willing to get sick and build the antibodies for you.

Hypatia1 wrote:We can't live in our basements forever.

I agree, but not going to spreader events, not going to indoor eateries, not going to indoor bars for awhile will drive the positivity rate way down, a lot faster than waiting for the estimated 60% of a population to get sick so herd immunity starts (let me repeat that, STARTS) to become effective.

Sweden tried herd immunity, much like Dr.(?) Atlas proposed and they have seen a spike in positivity and:

As of Oct. 13, Sweden’s per capita death rate is 58.4 per 100,000 people, according to Johns Hopkins University data, 12th highest in the world (not including tiny Andorra and San Marino).
https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/

Do you really want to duplicate Sweden's 'herd' immunity disaster.

If our population is 330,000,000 then approximately 200,000,000 will need to contract COVID-19 for herd immunity to become effective and that will mean approximately 4,000,000 people will die.

I truly hope you do not mean for that to happen. You need to stop listening to FOXNews, OAN, RT and NewsMax. These organizations and the Sinclair network are putting out very wrong information. I know you disagree, but you are so very wrong in your estimation of the problem COVID-19 presents to our population.

Hypatia1 wrote:Just look at it this way, I'm willing to get sick and build the antibodies for you.

Please don't do this. I will not appreciate your effort and it may put you at a severe risk to your ongoing health and ultimately, your life.

Look, we have to be able to get on with life. I understand people like you are high risk, and you need to protect yourself. But people do survive this virus. Back in the summer, my aunt and uncle were diagnosed with it. Uncle said he was in bed for three days and felt run down for a few days after that, but the next week he was back to normal. Aunt had a little harder time with it, but neither required hospitalization. They're both in their 60s and reasonably healthy. A little overweight, but otherwise, healthy 60 year olds.
I think the problem is YOU need to start listening to other sources besides CNN and MSNBC. As for me, I hardly ever listen to the news (no TV. You should try it) so my sources are from all over, including personal experiences of those who have had contact.
Also, this summer, I traveled through 14 states. Never once wore a mask unless absolutely required by law (call me crazy, but I just love oxygen) and I didn't get sick. And since this virus doesn't just spring up like some kind of weird spontaneous combustion, I also didn't get anyone else sick either. And yes, I have been tested. Twice. Still negative.

As of today's reporting there was 14,373,993 known cases, with 276,918 DEATHS(1.9%).

What part of the 276,918 deaths do you not get? Are you so heartless, with so little humanity, that you are willing for one more individual to die so you can visit one more bar, restaurant, state without even trying to stem one more infection - yourself.

BTW, one of your heroes, Rudy Giuliani, is now in Georgetown University Medical Center with a COVID-19 infection. Do you really think he will get the same drug cocktail that your other hero, Trump, got. I don't think so. Giuliani is 76 and visually not in great shape - maybe he will make it, but, given his age, odds are against him.

The Arizona Legislature will close for a week "out of an abundance of caution" after Rudy Giuliani, President Donald Trump's personal attorney, possibly exposed several Republican lawmakers to COVID-19.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/12/06/giuliani-test-positive-covid-19-met-arizona-lawmakers-before/3852278001/
Not from CNN or MSNBC, but from a very red state source.

So heartless? Typical leftist ploy. It's for the children! If it will only save one life! Odd no one seems to be railing against the CCP who allowed this plague to ravage the globe. But I'm an asshole because I want to try and get on with life. Do you have any sympathy for those people who have lost their entire livelihoods because of these shut downs? The people who have fallen back into addiction or given to suicide? Do those lives matter?

And for what it's worth, there's a huge difference in the number of people who died with the China virus versus those that died from the China virus.

As I said, and maybe you missed (or ignored), if you're at risk, please take precautions. Protect yourself. Do what you can. I'm very sorry you're at higher risk. But I'm not going to live my life in the basement because there are people at risk. I'm not giving up peanut butter because someone has a contact allergy. I'm not willing to cede liberty for a false sense of security.

But I'll make you a deal. I promise not to come to California. I'll keep my non-China virus germs here. How's that for a compromise?

Hypatia1 wrote:But I'm an asshole because I want to try and get on with life.

...

Hypatia1 wrote:And for what it's worth, there's a huge difference in the number of people who died with the China virus versus those that died from the China virus.

Maybe, but if the COVID-19 virus caused an exacerbation of an underlying condition caused a death, then the COVID-19 virus likely caused the death. This may be a foreign concept to you but let me give you an example that shouldn't be too taxing:

Jane has an undiagnosed aneurysm in her brain that erupts while she is driving down a freeway at normal speed The burst aneurysm causes her to quickly lose consciousness and her older car (without airbags) veers off the freeway hitting a bridge abutment and the car's steering wheel crushes her chest and she dies in the crash.
Now the coroner lists her death as a result of the crash but a more experience pathologist might examine her skull and find the result of the aneurysm contributed to her driving off the road, and ultimately crashing causing her death.

There is always difficulty in separating out correlation from causation, and vice versa (look it up).

Hypatia1 wrote:But I'll make you a deal. I promise not to come to California. I'll keep my non-China virus germs here. How's that for a compromise?

Works for me.

MichaelaSJ wrote: This may be a foreign concept to you but let me give you an example that shouldn't be too taxing:

Nice backhanded insult.

Hi Miki and Hypatia,

This virus is a pretty strange thing. I agree with Hypatia, there seems no doubt it came from China. It is rather strange that it seems to have disappeared in China too. I would not trust the CCP as far as I could throw any one of them.

I see Miki's angle too. This is what governments have been wrestling with since March. At first, in England, the Swedish idea held sway, go with herd immunity.... but pressure grew, because so many nations were shutting down. Sp we did, and probably ruined our economy for years. Special large units ended up not being used, we called them Nightingale units. They could have treated thousands, but they were not needed.

But, it is folly to blame any government against this virus, for it is perfect for disruption. It could not be designed better not to. No symptoms for quite a few days before it is known you have it. Or no symptoms at all! Yet you can still spread the thing! Then after you have had it, it maybe that you only have immunity from it for a very short while. So unlike any other corona virus... My educated guess is that it is almost certainly man made to cause immense disruption.

At the beginning of this, I believed the best solution was for people to carry on. Those at risk, for whatever reason, be that age, vulnerability or illness, should self isolate. Those of healthy disposition should have kept economies alive and though quite a few healthy younger folk may have succumbed, those that shielded would have been safe. Yes, it was a lot to ask, but I believe it would have saved lives and kept the economies of the world strong.

The difficulty would have been to move those that were vulnerable away from family situations, living together. Taking such a large part of the vulnerable away from the general population into care....

You know what? It was not impossible. Unused hotels, holiday camps etc or amalgamated homes that all received upmost, love, care and supply. It was and is still is a feasible proposition. It could have happened, yet was not even considered. Sounds a little Dickensian, but done correctly, with love, it would have benefited all in not only saving lives, but keeping economies going. Politicians are very tunnel visioned.

Anyway, we all have our own slant on the virus.... I am so happy that from tomorrow the vax starts in England!!!! England is amazing, I do wish well upon all the over 80's and care home residents that are to start receiving it and just pray to my Gods that they will be safe and well after..... ...

Celia xx

'by Hypatia1 on Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:06 pm

So heartless? Typical leftist ploy.'

I'm no leftist but you frankly are heartless. How many people have to die before you understand that even if this virus only kills a small percentage of Americans, which in your case amounts to millions of Americans. That's acceptable because in your America the mighty dollar comes first.

Every day now is 9/11. Do you find that acceptable?

I'll answer that question because yes you do.

But this time it's not ragheads or Muslims, it's Americans killing Americans because they love a racist, misogynistic, transphobic asshole who would happily kill you.
We trans people hate ourselves. I do. But you seem particularly hateful of yourself and us.

What is your problem?

Just wow. Amazing you know my heart like that. Since you've gone on the offensive, I will respond in kind. You're gullible. You're willing to give up everything so you feel good about yourself.

In your rush to admonish me, it would appear you skipped over the several times when I stated that at-risk people should take all the precautions they can. I guess me wanting at-risk people to not die is heartless in your book.

As for chasing the all-mighty dollar, that's not working out so well for me. I had a nice, low-paying job that was killed thanks to the China virus, so I've been out of work for the last six months just burning through my savings and what little inheritance I received from my parents. But ya, it's all about the Benjamins.

You're right about one thing. I have seen a lot of trans people who hate themselves. It's really one thing that turns me off about trans people. It's what makes so many bitter and repulsive in society. Is there any wonder why so many people push back against the trans community when it seems like "we" are always looking for a fight? People who come off as raving lunatics more than reasoned, intelligent people?

Take you for example. You come in here and chose not to discuss the topic but deride me because I don't group think with you. I don't swallow the blue pill. I'm not on the plantation. You don't have an original argument and I doubt you've ever had an original thought. You've been told what to think. I call it the China virus because it comes from China, and I specifically blame the CCP for that. I feel the Chinese people are victims of that corrupt, evil government and, being a caring person, want and hope that one day they may be free of their bondage.

But I'm sure that in your mind, no doubt filled with Orange Man Bad propaganda, thinks this virus was cooked up in the White House basement in between late night tweets. I cannot believe the mind fuck so many people have bought into. Donald Trump was celebrated by the LGBT community for years as being open and accommodating, right up to the time he came down the golden escalator.

I'm not going to go on because, honestly, you're tedious. You're the same-old, same-old. You're the bitter one who hates her(him?)self. As for me, I'm proud of myself. I've done what you likely will never do. I've completed my transition. And I did it on my own, not begging for someone else to make me happy. It's amazing what you can do when you put your mind to it. But you wouldn't know.

So I don't hate you. I pity you.

Free your fucking mind.

I'm afraid you are a victim of group think. The problem with many on the right is that they are manipulated by the powerful right wing lobby into believing they have original thought. In reality they parrot what they're fed by these people.

The blue pill, China virus etc. Qanon,. Don't believe you have original thoughts, most of us don't. This virus isn't a man made device. It was an accident waiting to happen and frequently predicted. It'll happen again.

Trump didn't cause it or indeed the cause it. But they share the blame for its disastrous consequences. Your job included. Meanwhile Trump squats in the White House inventing and expanding a monstrous lie to somehow cling onto power by any means. Meanwhile the people he claims to care about die in the thousands unheeded by him and his cronies.

He is a classic fascist. Like all fascists he has millions of supporters who fervently believe in him and will swallow any lie he tells. He is a danger to democracy not because he will succeed this time but because because he planted a seed of doubt in the democratic process.

I'm a centrist, moderate politically. Liberal with Conservative values. The left and right are equally absurd. Both vehemently believe they have all the answers. Both are wrong.

My mind is free. I don't believe the crap I'm fed by either side. I think for myself. You should try it sometime. It's quite liberating.

BTW that was a nasty piece at the end. Very offensive, you even misgendered me. Classic ad hominen. But don't worry I'm not offended.

Right. I'm the victim of group think.

So is Trump the cause of why it's been so devastating in Italy and Spain and Iran? I mean, if his mishandling of it here has been so catastrophic, then what's to explain why it was been equally bad or worse anywhere else?

I don't believe you actually have any idea of what a fascist is. You think you know. It's just whatever you perceive as evil that's not doing what you think is right. So that's fascist. And he didn't plant any seed. He's the only one standing up for the Republic (BTW, we have a republic, not a democracy).

And I don't believe you're a centrist. Why is it leftists always like to pretend they're centrists? Why can't leftists just come out and admit it. Bernie admits it, and he's super popular (talk about a cult). And you can claim to think for yourself, but all I hear is you parrot the same shit CNN, MSNBC and NPR says. I'm conservative because that's what life has taught me works.

And I only returned in kind, as I said. I have no intention of misgendering you or anybody else. I don't know you. I'm assuming you're MTF, but I don't know that. That's why I put that in parenthesis. That wasn't an intentional slight at you. Everything else was. My intentional slights are obvious.

I would like to also point out that all this hate directed at me simply because I stated I would be happy to donate my share of this vaccine. But I'm the hateful, intolerant one.

Hypatia1 wrote:I have seen a lot of trans people who hate themselves.  It's really one thing that turns me off about trans people.  It's what makes so many bitter and repulsive in society.  Is there any wonder why so many people push back against the trans community when it seems like "we" are always looking for a fight?  People who come off as raving lunatics more than reasoned, intelligent people?  

I have met maybe 200 transfolk, mostly female, some male, and with one exception, not one indicated any form of self-hate - NOT ONE.

Most of my acquaintances are quite happy with who they have become, some are unhappy with the conditions they need to live and I suspect some, a few, wish their lives had gone a different way.

The one individual I know who truly hates herself, admittedly did it to herself. She was an orthopedic surgeon who didn't want to lose her position/reputation in her field so she decided to bulk up to show everyone she was a 'man'. She hit Gold's Gym every day, sometimes twice a day, and went from #180 to nearly #300 and in doing so screwed up her neck and spine so badly that when she showed my the x-ray image of neck, the six screws were clearly seen. She can now barely walk

What she hated was her inability to love who she was, way too late. She didn't hate her transness, she hated what it cost when running from something she should have embraced - and that is what she hates.

Hypatia1 wrote:In your rush to admonish me, it would appear you skipped over the several times when I stated that at-risk people should take all the precautions they can.  I guess me wanting at-risk people to not die is heartless in your book.

Everyone, regardless of their risk level, IS AT RISK FOR CONTRACTING THE COVID-19 Virus.

EVERYONE!

Hypatia1 wrote:I don't believe you actually have any idea of what a fascist is.  You think you know.  It's just whatever you perceive as evil that's not doing what you think is right.  So that's fascist.  And he didn't plant any seed.  He's the only one standing up for the Republic (BTW, we have a republic, not a democracy).

Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

What part of the above description of fascism does not apply to Trump?

Hypatia1 wrote:And I don't believe you're a centrist.  Why is it leftists always like to pretend they're centrists?  Why can't leftists just come out and admit it.  Bernie admits it, and he's super popular (talk about a cult).  And you can claim to think for yourself, but all I hear is you parrot the same shit CNN, MSNBC and NPR says.  I'm conservative because that's what life has taught me works.

There are a lot of ideas from the liberal progressive left that I embrace, there are very few ideas from the conservative right that I can even begin to consider.

I agree it is hard to define what a political 'centrist' is, but if you place all political thought under a true bell curve then roughly 68% will fall within a 1 sigma distribution. That distribution includes a lot of different and contradictory political views. Mine, yours (likely), Marie's...

So, when someone, like Marie says she a centrist, politically, believe her - she is in a lot of company.

Hypatia I'm really a centrist. I don't hate you and I don't think you are entirely wrong. The big thing is that is that I think I can personally sit with you and enjoy a bottle of wine and express our differences.
That's me. If you have violent attitudes we can't relate.

I actually think you in reality outside virtuality. You are a pleasent amenable person. As is my experience of actual Americans.

Am I wrong?

Hi Hypatia, Miki and Marie,

Well, where on earth do I start? For I like a lively conversation, but not personal attacks.... the conversation can continue, but do lay off anything personal..... please.

It is quite late here, I do see all points of view and let you know mine. The disease is not an easy thing to have been dealing with over the past year by any government, of any country.

Sweden thought they were doing the right thing by choosing to go for herd immunity. That has proven wrong, particularly now, the numbers are the worst in Europe. The Uk began with that and then went with a lengthy lockdown, followed by a measured opening. Now it is not as bad as many. Italy, Spain and France kind of went with dramatic lockdowns that were very strict and now have the lowest numbers in Europe.

The USA is a huge country, with very diverse communities even within it's Anglo Saxon base, add to that all the other sizeable communities and it makes it an impossible task for any federal government to control. For example, Vermont is cheese to California's salt. Totally different. I believe the federal government cannot take all the blame. Restrictions there truly need to be governed on a state level far more rigorously, without federal intervention, but with federal cash and advice and only intervening where clear breaches of common sense are being installed.

No nation, strangely, has beat this virus so easily than China. It is a fact, not a notion, that the virus began in the city of Wuhan, China. It is some coincidence that there is the largest viral laboratory studying viral diseases in Wuhan, China. Yes, it is a Chinese disease. China has many questions to answer, not the least is how it has managed since to contain it so easily.

Reason is how we must discuss such a thing as Covid-19... not hot-headed left and right wing blame gaming. Actually, I think Hypatia deserves an apology, she has as much right to her point of view as anyone I may or not agree with her politics. She was not nasty or provocative. Calm down please girls, we are one, remember that, we need to stick together.

*Edit, that post Marie, has softened things a little, thank you.

Celia xx

Ok, Celia has put me in my place. Damm her reasonable behaviour. I apologise for being a bit of a bitch. I like being a bitch though. (That's why I love her though)

I'm sorry because I'm not actually a horrid person.

Nevertheless I don't believe Trump's crap. I do believe we should always be critical of anything we're told. Right or left or even centrist.

.